Sonic differences between the '59 and '60 Custom pickups

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erksin
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Re: Sonic differences between the '59 and '60 Custom pickups

Postby erksin » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:23 pm

MWaldorf wrote:
erksin wrote:I've actually been going in the opposite direction - lowering them to get some 'air' out of them. I didn't think to try it the other way. Doesn't that rob you of sustain having them jacked up high?


Sustain? What's sustain? :) Seriously, the attack and quick dropoff is something I like. Jaguars and Jazzmasters have similar qualities. If I want sustain, there's always reverb or fuzz.


I realize that attack and drop off is a trademark of this type of guitar (and I like that about it too), but the high end was lacking and on Strats that's typically because the pickups are too close to the strings and that magnetic pulls dampens the highs and kills off any chance for getting that sustaining ring out of open chords.
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Re: Sonic differences between the '59 and '60 Custom pickups

Postby Bob Shade » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:38 pm

I would like to thank Raygun for his purchase of a new Hallmark 60C and for the nice review! I would like to chime in and say a couple of things about the standard H60C.

1. The 60 Custom is not EXACTLY like a typical Mosrite in regards to fabrication of tonal wood, nor was it our goal. The only set neck and alder body combination on a Mosrite was the 1963 Ventures Model when Semie was using upscale components like body binding, set necks, and alder for the body wood. By 1964 Mosrite abandoned alder and went with basswood which is easier to carve and about half the price to boot ( Some guitar builders say basswood is not considered a real tonal wood, that it is in fact 1 step up from bottom of the line balsa wood. I still use it from time to time and it has a mellow dark tone) and they went with a bolt on neck. A set neck will give you a slightly darker tone that a bolt on. An alder body will lend itself to more sustain and more balanced highs and lows than basswood which will give you more of a honk and mellow tone. Also, I have improved the vintage Mosrite bridge with better ingredients in the Hallmark bridge for sustain and tuning stability and no buzz.

One thing I am getting at is in order to test a Mosrite pickup side to side with a Hallmark, you would need two Hallmarks to do it with or two Mosrites as the tone on each will differ slightly.

2. Most guys love our 60C pickups as is. We have had an incredible amount of people writing in to us in thanks, saying that now have "THAT" sound. We have also tried to improve the pickup for this and all of our models. One thing about the Mosrite pickup is as nice as it sounds clean, it sounds horrible if you intend on using gain or loud distortion due to no potting and hillbilly technology of foam and epoxy backing. This lends itself to alot of vibration, which causes micro fonics and feedback. ( not the desirable kind).
We make the 60 Custom pickup so any player can enjoy it. Some pro's would never be able to use the vintage style Mosrite pickup. It has alway's been a sticking point with guys who want more juice. We have improved the structure of the pickup but kept the highly wound bobbin and alnico magnets to give maximum tone. As you can see in the pictures we employ a brass plate for stability and grounding purposes, and wax pot the pickup. We also use shielded cable and shielding paint in our body cavity. The combination of these attributes make the H60C extremely quiet for single coils and you can even crank them up through a Marshall and get as much crunch as you wish, which is not possible with a vintage Mosrite pickup. In a studio environment with a H60C you can be sure the producer will not be saying, "who's guitar is making noise?)

3. Having said that we will still hand wind pickups to your liking with or without bobbins with new or vintage magnets. As you would suppose, these pickups cost more because they are wound by hand, and do lend themselves to variation depending on what magnet you want use for tone and how much wire we wind them up to. Or you can call M3 too, he makes a variety of Mosrite style pickups.

Whatever you decide on it is nice to know there alot of choices that can help you get the sound you want and you can find them right here on the forum.

Thanks again to M3 for purchasing a Hallmark 60 Custom and posting a review!

Bob Shade

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Re: Sonic differences between the '59 and '60 Custom pickups

Postby Brinkman » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:48 pm

Bob, THANKS!

I've heard a couple different folks (neither of whom play Ventures-style or country music) say that, to their ears, the P-90s in a Hallmark Custom '60 are the the best pickups being manufactured right now. I'm assuming they are referring to stock, which is why I have been so curious about what a stock Hallmark P-90 is exactly.

Do your stock pickups use vintage-style break away bar magnets seen in Raygun's photos below?

Sorry if I'm being a little slow on the uptake here.

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Re: Sonic differences between the '59 and '60 Custom pickups

Postby Bob Shade » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:49 pm

As you can see in Raygun's photo of the H60C pickup on it's backside, we are using Alnico 5 bar magnets as breakaway mags are outdated and extremely expensive. Having said that, we have in stock 70's breakaway segmented magnets purchased from the same company who made them for Mosrite, as well, we have 70's ceramic mags that were used on the brass rails and blues benders etc. So if you want something specific let us know.

Mel is right, if you want the Ventures sound from the 60 Custom, adjust the pickups as close to the strings as possible then plug it into a Fender and you will have that sound.

Bob

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Re: Sonic differences between the '59 and '60 Custom pickups

Postby raygun85 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:16 pm

erksin wrote:Thanks for posting.

So upping the pots to 500K should definitely open up the top end then and give them a little more string definition in your opinion?


Well personally, I like the 250K. Like I said, measuring in at 11-12K, I was very surprised that the Hallmark pickups sounded as bright as they did. In the musical instrument business...beauty is in the ear of the beholder. So it's really just a matter of personal taste as to how we could define "string definition." When I was a teenager I liked an ear-splitting amount of treble because I thought it gave my guitar more presence. Moving the poles closer to the strings as Mel suggested would *usually* accentuate more bass and mids, so that may not be what you want either. If you like really bright tones I would definitely stick with the stock pickups and throw in some 500K pots. $10 and 10 minutes of soldering. If you don't like it, just put the 250K pots back in. Or if you want it brighter, try 1Meg pots. Remember, you will notice less differences in tone when both knobs are rolled all the way up. But it may be enough to get you in the realm you're looking for.
How dare you presume to inject, using reproducible facts and rational thought, an on-topic discussion into a thread that had degenerated from sarcasm, personal invective, and hand-waving arguments?

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Re: Sonic differences between the '59 and '60 Custom pickups

Postby raygun85 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:47 pm

Bob Shade wrote:I would like to thank Raygun for his purchase of a new Hallmark 60C and for the nice review! I would like to chime in and say a couple of things about the standard H60C.

1. The 60 Custom is not EXACTLY like a typical Mosrite in regards to fabrication of tonal wood, nor was it our goal. The only set neck and alder body combination on a Mosrite was the 1963 Ventures Model when Semie was using upscale components like body binding, set necks, and alder for the body wood. By 1964 Mosrite abandoned alder and went with basswood which is easier to carve and about half the price to boot ( Some guitar builders say basswood is not considered a real tonal wood, that it is in fact 1 step up from bottom of the line balsa wood. I still use it from time to time and it has a mellow dark tone) and they went with a bolt on neck. A set neck will give you a slightly darker tone that a bolt on. An alder body will lend itself to more sustain and more balanced highs and lows than basswood which will give you more of a honk and mellow tone. Also, I have improved the vintage Mosrite bridge with better ingredients in the Hallmark bridge for sustain and tuning stability and no buzz.

One thing I am getting at is in order to test a Mosrite pickup side to side with a Hallmark, you would need two Hallmarks to do it with or two Mosrites as the tone on each will differ slightly.

2. Most guys love our 60C pickups as is. We have had an incredible amount of people writing in to us in thanks, saying that now have "THAT" sound. We have also tried to improve the pickup for this and all of our models. One thing about the Mosrite pickup is as nice as it sounds clean, it sounds horrible if you intend on using gain or loud distortion due to no potting and hillbilly technology of foam and epoxy backing. This lends itself to alot of vibration, which causes micro fonics and feedback. ( not the desirable kind).
We make the 60 Custom pickup so any player can enjoy it. Some pro's would never be able to use the vintage style Mosrite pickup. It has alway's been a sticking point with guys who want more juice. We have improved the structure of the pickup but kept the highly wound bobbin and alnico magnets to give maximum tone. As you can see in the pictures we employ a brass plate for stability and grounding purposes, and wax pot the pickup. We also use shielded cable and shielding paint in our body cavity. The combination of these attributes make the H60C extremely quiet for single coils and you can even crank them up through a Marshall and get as much crunch as you wish, which is not possible with a vintage Mosrite pickup. In a studio environment with a H60C you can be sure the producer will not be saying, "who's guitar is making noise?)

3. Having said that we will still hand wind pickups to your liking with or without bobbins with new or vintage magnets. As you would suppose, these pickups cost more because they are wound by hand, and do lend themselves to variation depending on what magnet you want use for tone and how much wire we wind them up to. Or you can call M3 too, he makes a variety of Mosrite style pickups.

Whatever you decide on it is nice to know there alot of choices that can help you get the sound you want and you can find them right here on the forum.

Thanks again to M3 for purchasing a Hallmark 60 Custom and posting a review!

Bob Shade


Bob, the guitar is great. And, yes, the pickups are great as well. I wasn't really tearing them down, just pointing out the differences. I was understandably curious about the pickups since we've had so many Hallmark owners purchase our pickups - including Mel and Rick Miller from Southern Culture On The Skids. Rick also replaced his Mosrite pickups with RH-100's and requested them wax-potted for all the same reasons you pointed out. The stock Hallmark pickups actually sound very good, you'll get no argument from me on there. For fans of early 60s surf and guitar instrumentals they will be very happy. But we have had a customer that we couldn't please. We even wound a custom replacement set for him and he still wasn't happy. He was pleased with our customer service but described our pickups as "muddy." (Of course, he was also putting them in a Gibson SG with a mahogany body, too.) But he told me he was expecting our pickups to sound really "hot" like The Ventures in the mid-60's, but instead they sounded more like a "fat, bluesy, Stevie Ray Vaughan tone." I referred him to the Ventures' records Knock Me Out, Walk Don't Run Vol. 2, and In Space albums. He admitted that he'd never heard those records. I guess he downloaded them off the internet or something but after he listened to them he admitted that our pickups 'nailed the tone', but that it 'wasn't what he was looking for.' If I remember correctly, he ended up opting for some cheap import pickups off of eBay. He was nice enough to let me know. :roll: I think there a lot of people who are confusing the sounds of other less-prominent surf bands from the 60s who played Strats and Jazzmasters, or maybe The Ventures early years. So I was very curious as to what the stock 60C pickups sounded like with so many people saying they nailed the tone. Especially since, as I mentioned, we've had a lot of Hallmark owners replace them with our's. (We've also bought Dillions, Eastwoods, and have worked on a lot of Wilson Bros when working with Tim Wilson. Hallmark was the only one we hadn't had an opportunity to check out.) To my ears, they sound like a hot Jazzmaster - which I personally like. A lot of people actually desire this tone in their guitars.

By the way, just curious if you guys are using the Start or the Finish wire for your ground lead? Because that, in conjunction with the brass base plate, can help filter out hum and buzz.

Anyhow, as most everyone knows, my dad is a custom guitar maker. We were hoping to get our guitars going soon but with dad's recent health woes and our preoccupancy with the Mosrite and custom parts business, we've been slowed waaaaay down. Even Bob was wondering why I ordered it. But we've sold off our prototypes and I have not owned a genuine Mosrite guitar for years. So I got the 60C so I would have a good test bed for our pickup experiments. (Same pickup routing cavities...etc...). The Hallmark is a nice little axe and I wouldn't have any qualms about taking it to a gig or a jam as a main or a backup guitar. Keep up the good work, Bob.
How dare you presume to inject, using reproducible facts and rational thought, an on-topic discussion into a thread that had degenerated from sarcasm, personal invective, and hand-waving arguments?

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Re: Sonic differences between the '59 and '60 Custom pickups

Postby raygun85 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:05 pm

I just realized that I don't think I really reached the point I was driving at in my last post. What I was basically trying to say was that Mosrite pickups have become legendary and are known for being some of the 'hottest pickups you could get in the 60s.'

The other problem is that The Ventures were never a *surf* band per se - as they themselves have pointed out in countless interviews.

So people listen to instrumental surf music in general, the Mosrite has been labeled a "surf" guitar because of it's affiliation with a band who has been labeled a "surf band", though their music predated and also went well above and beyond the surf music scene; and the Mosrite era was quite possibly the least surf-sounding transition during The Ventures' career. Perhaps trumped only by their more "pop" sound in the early 70s and their later experiments with Ska and Disco.

Therefore I don't think some people know what a "hot" pickup is. That's probably why some people say the Hallmark stock pickups nail the tone and some don't. That's probably why we had that customer who wasn't happy with our pickups. And even just recently, I had another prospective customer inform me that Ed Elliot's pickups sounded "muddy"! Which really shocked me. This same customer was also unhappy with Curtis Novak's pickups. As a pickup maker myself, I have the utmost respect for these guys and have a hard time believing that their pickups sound all that different from our's. We're next on the list and I'm wondering if he will describe our pickups as "muddy." In fact, I remember one customer describing the 60C pickups as muddy!! I know, personally, they don't sound muddy. To me, they sound fairly bright.

There is way too much hooey in the musical instrument business. It would be nice if everyone could get on the same page about what "hot" vs. "muddy" means; and what The Ventures' Mosrite era actually represents.
How dare you presume to inject, using reproducible facts and rational thought, an on-topic discussion into a thread that had degenerated from sarcasm, personal invective, and hand-waving arguments?

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Re: Sonic differences between the '59 and '60 Custom pickups

Postby JimPage » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:21 pm

Raygun85 wrote:
>>When I was a teenager I liked an ear-splitting amount of treble because I thought it gave my
>>guitar more presence . . .

Matt, I think a lot of folks think or once thought that way, but that's never been a sound I cared for. Happily, an electric guitar is capable of such a wide palette of sounds that it's just amazing.

Some folks get wound around the axle trying to replicate some sound they remember from years back, and to me that's a very slippery slope. There are so many variables involved, including the recording process and so on.

I read an interview where George Harrison didn't like his sound on the early Beatles records, but a lot of us did and tried our best to obtain it.

Funny, isn't it?!?!?

This has been a fascinating thread so far; I hope it continues with good info and photos.

--Jim
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• '99 Martin D-41
• '67 Mosrite Celebrity II
• '72 Mosrite Celebrity III
• '83 Tokai TST56
• '10 Hallmark Barris Krest
• '10 Hallmark 60 Custom
• '10 Hallmark Stradette
• '50s Tele Clone
• Basses: Ashbory, Hofner, 51RI Precision, 5-string, fretless

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Re: Sonic differences between the '59 and '60 Custom pickups

Postby raygun85 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:25 pm

Well, it could've been worse. At least I never drowned the sound in distortion like most young folks. I didn't even start playing with overdrive or fuzz boxes until I was nearly twenty years old. I never called 5th's "power chords" either. :roll:
How dare you presume to inject, using reproducible facts and rational thought, an on-topic discussion into a thread that had degenerated from sarcasm, personal invective, and hand-waving arguments?

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Re: Sonic differences between the '59 and '60 Custom pickups

Postby Veenture » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:06 am

Thank you Matt for sharing your expertise, experience and thoughts on the subject of pickups/tone.

JimPage, +1 on what you said ;)


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